Life Community Church
Life Community Church
1 Corinthians Discussion | Chapter 5 | Pastor Jamey, Shaun, Jodi & Mike
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Headphones, Hair, And Summer Banter
SPEAKER_01What's happening, gang? How are we?
SPEAKER_00Me and you are the only ones that heard that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you think so? Oh, that's true. They don't have headphones.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I can hear a little bit. I'm with you.
SPEAKER_01Why don't you give Mike your headphones that you're not going to use them, Pastor Jody? There you go. Yeah. Jody doesn't like to wear headphones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's the girls. It's all the girls.
SPEAKER_03Glasses. They don't want to mess up the hair.
SPEAKER_01Mess up your hair, Jody.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if that'll apply to me. Whoa.
SPEAKER_01I mean it's messing up your hair. Mike's hair actually didn't even move.
SPEAKER_00He's just happy he has some up there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't mind that hairline at that point. You guys all have the same haircut.
SPEAKER_00Well, we all go to the same place. We all go to the same place. And so did Scott.
SPEAKER_05And so did Scott. My girls grew up knowing two things. One, you don't drink out of dad's cup.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_05And two, you don't touch his hair. Oh.
SPEAKER_02Is that right?
SPEAKER_05And now it's your beard. Well, now, yeah. And then the grandkids come along and they were slopping in my cups and messing with my hair. No rules with that. No rules with them. And then my girls are just like, what?
California Weather And LA Catch-Up
SPEAKER_05Happy summer. Happy summer.
SPEAKER_02In it.
SPEAKER_05Boy, the mornings have just been beautiful the last couple mornings.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I was California, it was the same every day.
unknownReally?
SPEAKER_00Temperature-wise? Oh, I mean, it's like the exact same day. It's like Groundhog Day. Oh, really? You're just waking up and you're like, well, it's the same as yesterday, not a cloud in the sky.
SPEAKER_03Hudson has a dear friend who lives in LA and he's like, Man, will you ever move back? He's like, dude, this weather here, I just can't. It's so nice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, weather, traffic, not so much. Really? I think it would be close. 1.2 miles, 38 minutes. On the I5. Yeah, it's it's definitely interesting.
SPEAKER_01But were you a long ways from like so the game's like probably downtown LA? Like the stadium?
SPEAKER_00Glive is yeah, downtown.
SPEAKER_01Downtown. You're a little out further out or not really?
SPEAKER_00So like is it a suburb? Oh, okay. In Glendale, yeah. But it's like we were eight minutes from Universal. Yeah, it was it was uh yeah, it was pretty awesome. I mean Glendale is definitely a suburb and you know a lot of Airbnb rentals and stuff like that. But yeah, like a two-bedroom condo is 1.3 million.
A Huge USA Soccer Match
SPEAKER_03Was everybody dressed in USA? Or were there other game? Yeah, at the game.
SPEAKER_00Or were people like there's some Paraguay people. There were. Yeah, they left sad. I mean it was funny afterwards, you know. Just you're walking out. Their their uniforms are very similar to U.S. Oh, with eight, so color wise and all that. So yeah, you could tell, but it was it was definitely I mean 77,000.
SPEAKER_03I mean, there was Were there songs like lots of songs?
SPEAKER_00Songs like I mean Instruments?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I've only been to a City game. That's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_00I mean City times, you know, five. I mean, because City seats 18,000. This was you know eight.
SPEAKER_03No, but like the music section?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean sub uh the supporters. I mean, they're called, you know, the uh uh yeah. Yeah, the supporter section.
SPEAKER_01That's fine. I could tell he's like, I'm talking to a bunch of non-stoccer people right now. He's like, I probably shouldn't dive in deep. Like it doesn't really matter.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna say things like like we just heard where you feel like you're talking the second language. Like I don't understand any of the words you're saying.
SPEAKER_01I can see in his head it's computing like I shouldn't go any further with this group in soccer.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was just wondering, like, are they singing USA songs? Like that'd be fun. God bless America.
SPEAKER_00No, they're not doing any of that. No. No. I mean, if you've been to City Game, you know they're singing like about City, but I mean they're singing, but there's a lot of O's and A's and claps, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01Was it everything that you hoped it would be, Pastor Jim? I know you've been accomplished more. That's all.
SPEAKER_00It exceeded your expectations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Because they weren't, I mean, I mean, you they might have been favored to, you know, maybe win the division or the the the group, but uh I don't know.
Why Flopping Drives Everyone Crazy
SPEAKER_03Paraguay is supposed to be tough because I asked Jeff, I said, Jeff, at this level of games, are they still flopping? He said yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, flopping everything. No, I don't understand that.
SPEAKER_03Well, just like even with hockey.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, why don't we want to see like the only sport I've never seen it happen in is golf.
SPEAKER_03Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01Nobody's getting hit. Flopping.
SPEAKER_00No flopping in golf.
SPEAKER_02No, what about baseball?
SPEAKER_03Nobody's getting hurt in baseball.
SPEAKER_00I mean, they get hit by a pitch and they they I mean I just can't understand how they're flopping that.
SPEAKER_01It's three hours long. I can't just tell you last time I watched a baseball game. I'd rather watch golf than baseball.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I just have I have sped it up a little bit with the clocks. And they're doing that even in the World Cup. Like you have 10 seconds to throw the ball in. If you if a inju injury happens, so it's stopping the flopping. If an injury happens and the trainer comes out, that person's got to sit out a minute, at least before they come in. So it's stopping some of the buttons. I mean, you're flopping to get a call. Just like in the NBA, when you're getting when you get pushed or something like that and it's exaggerated.
SPEAKER_03Does it happen in high school?
SPEAKER_00Flopping? Yeah. Yeah. He goes to this church. Hayes is the biggest flopper. I've heard the king of flopping. I don't know. King flopper.
SPEAKER_05King flopper haze.
SPEAKER_00Does it annoy me?
SPEAKER_05I can't wait to see Hayes. We're putting that out.
SPEAKER_03Was it around when you were playing soccer? No.
SPEAKER_00There's nothing. That's a new invention. Yeah, I mean, there's totally different. Yeah. Totally different. I mean, we played on you know fields that weren't pristine. We played on fields that had been. You didn't want to fall around and stuff like that. You're fallen because the wood conditions, you know. I mean, it is just a different, different game for sure.
SPEAKER_03Hayes is Hayes is the king flopper.
SPEAKER_00I mean, he's that's what I think got us a lot of penalty kicks.
SPEAKER_03And so for that, you're happy.
SPEAKER_01It's an important part of the game in these days. It's important. You need to have someone that can have a lot of people.
The Hard Pivot To 1 Corinthians 5
SPEAKER_01Speaking of flopping, 1 Corinthians chapter 5.
SPEAKER_00The people at Corinth, they were proud of themselves. Or they should have been mourning.
SPEAKER_03They shouldn't have had sorrow in the perfect segue. That's right.
SPEAKER_01All right. So we've got some interesting sexual morality going on in the church. We got a son sleeping with his stepmom. And uh hopefully it was his stepmom. I think so.
SPEAKER_00I think it would have to say anything about Arkansas in here. Still, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Do we do you have do we get to edit this? Or is that better?
SPEAKER_01No, this is it's yeah. So anyways, it's good.
SPEAKER_03I'm feeling like Romeo and Juliet when I was like, I just seemed like star-crossed lovers, you know, like because like in this time frame, the wives are young. And so if he's married to his um or if he's sleeping with his stepmom, it's because his stepmom is young. Right. So like she's hooked up with an older guy. That's probably there's a handsome son in the house, she's like, I'd way rather be with him, you know. So like I've heard for it.
SPEAKER_01Some stuff I was reading it to you, and I don't know if this is obviously who knows it's true, but there's potential that like the dad was actually dead.
SPEAKER_03Could be for sure.
SPEAKER_01So like he's gone at this point. It's still wrong. But still wrong.
SPEAKER_03And even pagans weren't doing it.
SPEAKER_00You know, from what the text is. That's kind of where I go from. Like, you know, when just talking about culture is in disagreement with this and you're you're being proud about it. It's like, oh man, that's that's next level. It's next level.
SPEAKER_03Well, and it made me imagine because there are some um some commentary saying like maybe the person was well known in the community, you know. So it's like, think of when we've got somebody in our community like Kanye or you know, whoever, and you're like, oh, we're so happy he's a Christian now, but then he does some crazy things. You're like, no, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01We have freedom to do that. Sure.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's not what that album meant.
SPEAKER_01That's a great observation. That's a great way to illustrate it, though. Yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_03You're like, no, we're so happy he's in our camp, even though he's sleeping with a stump mom. Paul's like, I'm with you in spirit, expel him.
SPEAKER_01Let me ask
When Sin Gets Protected As Family
SPEAKER_01you guys this as pastors. You've been here the I mean pastor the longest, Mike, but have you ever had to deal with this kind of issue right here? Some walks in and says, There's sin in the church, and the sin is, you know.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yeah. I mean, if you've been just time, you're you're gonna deal with all kinds of son sleeping with his mother? Well, maybe pastoring in South Dakota. I had three generations of and I hope it's okay to say, but I had three generations of Native, you know, Native American family, and there was incest going on. And so I had to deal with all that. Would their like this culture, would their culture be like, oh my goodness, this is No, that was not accepted in their culture per se, but it was um what I found out is that I was approached by somebody in the family that knew for a fact that this was going on, so I called the whole family in to address this and the whole family turned on me because you know. You were bringing division Yeah, because we're we're gonna stick up for the family from somebody from the outside as attacking us. So i it became quickly turned from me versus them. And it wasn't.
SPEAKER_03Was the person being victimized in the group? Like that you're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_05So it was a father having incest with a daughter.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_03And now everyone's defending that?
SPEAKER_01Would we not call that abuse?
SPEAKER_03I mean, yes, like DC.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely it's abuse. So then all of a sudden it was because of this, you know, being all being brought to light and everything. So now we're going to stick together because we're family.
SPEAKER_01It's more important.
SPEAKER_05And because I'm saying there's legal issues here that need to be confronted and right away then that's when everything turned.
SPEAKER_03Wow. And so they were in your church?
SPEAKER_05They were in the church.
SPEAKER_03So did they leave of their own accord then?
SPEAKER_05Yes. Yeah. Because I I I mean I looked at the mom and said, You're okay with this? It it was a weird thing. I mean, I don't want to go into all the details. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00As for Pastor Jackie and Pastor Doby have talked about native culture and I mean I it's and uh I mean I protect your own, protect your family. Yeah, but and well, not just that, but the you know the relationships that happen are are within family. It may not be father-daughter, but like, you know, sister-in-laws and uh and so pretty well.
SPEAKER_05So you take that and bring it over into 1 Corinthians chapter five, which what was going on in First Corinthians chapter five is probably something like this on steroids. Especially
Tolerance That Erodes Church Identity
SPEAKER_05the influence of the Roman culture.
SPEAKER_00I think what Paul's addressing is not just that as wrong, but why are you guys okay with it?
SPEAKER_05Why are you tolerating this?
SPEAKER_01I think he's dealing with a uh a puffed uh a sin of tolerance versus a sin of sexual morality. Because I don't know that he's surprised with this you know, the act of that's happening in the culture. This is probably obviously like they've seen all this crazy stuff already, but I think it's the idea of like, church, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think what you're talking about is more shocking to me than this scenario when it comes to that type of relationship, especially if the dad is dead, you know, okay. Well, I'm not justifying it, but right, but he's saying, Church, you're allowing it to happen. You become comfortable with it. So you're tolerating something that that no one is how are you not addressing this? Which my first question has been like, like, where do you think the American church has become so comfortable uh with what God calls us to confront? Like what situation?
SPEAKER_03I think the same thing. Sexual immorality, sex, you know, um, cohabitation, like it is such a part of our culture. You know, no one is embarrassed to say, my daughter's moving in with her boyfriend.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03You know, like that is just what happens. And I think the the thing that I struggle with is that we're in a different culture where we're not so community oriented, where it's not, you know, like if I kick you out of the church, you're like, that's fine, you know, like not a big deal. We're such an individualistic culture.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_03So, like, A, I don't even really know what is happening in everyone's homes and closed doors. Um, and then also, like, we don't live a communal life that it affects us negatively if we get pulled out of those things. So I just that was kind of what I was thinking about this morning. Like, how would that translate to our culture? Like, what is painful? You know, for them to excommunicate this guy was going to be super painful in the hopes that he would be restored to the community. Like, do you see that working today?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think in this situation, even your you know, example, I might have a child who doesn't attend here that that's happening, and I'm willing to say it to you. But then I and I agree, but I think it also, you know, even further than that, it's like people that are in the church that are comfortable with it and like, oh, I don't know, I shouldn't be doing that, and I'm doing it. And so he they're dealing with someone who is in that community. So, like, hey, you attend here, you're coming to church here. Well, what is happening? And again, I think Paul is not only addressing that, I think it's kind of secondary to the fact that how are you guys okay with this? Like leadership-wise, what what is going on with you guys that you're not addressing this situation? We're not debating right and wrong here. It's wrong. Why are you not addressing it?
SPEAKER_03And so, like Avoiding conflict.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a thousand percent. I mean, I we all know why people avoid conflict. Um, but Paul's saying that's that's not the goal here. The goal is that we don't avoid that.
SPEAKER_01It's almost like they're they're not understanding fully how it's affecting spiritually, how it's affecting the body of Christ. You know what I mean? Like obviously it's he talks about bread and it like bringing this in and it, how it's not going to, you know, work the right way, you know, kind of deal. And so this idea of like you guys have lost sight, the fact that like your brother's sin ignoring it also will contaminate you as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, talk about bread and yeast. I mean, this is how counter-cultural this is. Like my brain can't wrap itself around it. Because in my world, like making sourdough bread, yeast is good. Like I want it to travel through the whole loaf, and it's a fail if the yeast hasn't done it. But then in this world, in the first century world, especially like Passover, we are scouring this house for every little bit of yeast. Get it out of this home. And so he's like taint, you know, it's upside down how he thinks of it. Contamination as negative. You know what I mean?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Kind of like the red card at VBS. Yeah, what does this mean? Red cards are not good. You're giving them out like they're candy. I'm like, that's not good.
SPEAKER_03It's hard for your brain to make sense.
SPEAKER_00You have to leave and you can't come back the next day. That's what it'd be like. Red card is you're out of the game and you're and you can't play the next game.
SPEAKER_03I feel like we shouldn't do this. This is widely known.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I I know this, actually. And I'm not a yellow cards are not good. Red cards are even worse.
SPEAKER_03I'll tell Caleb we got to change it for one life. It'll be too confusing for people.
SPEAKER_00They think they're any soccer kid that's there is going like, wait, what? If they start crying when you give them a red card, just no, they're soccer kids.
SPEAKER_02So what you're saying is you understand why I'm having a hard time with the yeast. Okay.
SPEAKER_05I think too, what Paul's pointing out here is if you keep allowing certain things in a culture, then what it does, yeah, it grows and and it changes the identity of it. Is really I I heard this, I'll use I thought about this quote. It says, our culture cannot tell us what a man is because it no longer knows. And see, what is that? That's because of this in our culture is just this decaying of identity of what it is. And so if you keep decaying, you keep chipping away, if you don't keep establishing truth um and authenticity of something, it quickly then can be changed into something it's not. And that's I think what Paul is one of the things Paul's addressing in First Corinthians chapter five here is if you don't if you don't get a handle on this, you're gonna lose the identity of who we are as followers of Jesus. We're gonna but we're gonna look just like the world. There's nothing gonna be nothing that causes us to stand out. Yeah. Yeah that to you know. I think this is go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was gonna say, I think that's why it's important, you know, how you've been established establishing who is family.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_03Like that's the biggest, you know, hurdles. Like, are you a follower of Christ? Should I expect this of you? If I don't know, obviously the world is gonna sleep and cohabitate with one another. So who are you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think the questions here's how I know culture is going arrays when you when questions become the problem. Like when you ask a question and you're like, who like why are you asking me that question? It's like we don't have a problem with the question, we have a problem with the answer. Thus, the reason I have a problem with the question. So, like, what is a woman? There's nothing wrong with that question.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, why are you so upset?
SPEAKER_00I'm I'm upset because I don't know how to answer that. Well, even stop and think about we have to ask that question, yes.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, so this is this is where Paul's at. Like, guys, what what are we doing?
SPEAKER_03When do we do this? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And now all of a sudden they're appalled at the question, like, that's why why are we why are you asking those kind of questions? Well, be it's not that. I mean, we had this in a couple confrontations that we're we've had with people, and it's like, why are you doing that? Well, why are you asking me that question? I'm like, listen, I have no problem answering that question. I know the answer to it. Why do you have a problem answering it? Because you don't like the answer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So now all of a sudden we're just gonna question the question. Like, whoa, who are you to question me on that? And this is what Paul and I think the big picture of Paul, what I love the most about even saying, like, hey, push him away, which sounds so harsh, but Paul's more concerned about eternity than he is your present feelings. Because he says his sinful nature will be destroyed, and what he himself will be saved when the Lord returns. So he's like, I'm I'm thinking big picture here. Yep, his feelings are gonna get hurt. Yes, he's gonna be bad. But I want him to forget what he's what he's got here and by doing that seeing himself on his own, I hope then he returns on the day, you know, that he has salvation. He's seeing a bigger picture. I think going back to what you just said, Jode, like I think we don't like conflict because we care more about current feelings than we do eternity. And that's hard to say.
SPEAKER_01And care about more about ourselves than we do our brother. Yeah. Right? For sure.
SPEAKER_03I was thinking of my literal brother. He became a Christian very late in life, like in his 40s. And it was that somebody finally, and I'm sure, you know, he his spirit was finally ready for it too, but the confrontation was in against him, towards his sin and the ugliness of it, instead of being like, hey, it's okay that you've got, you know, two different baby mamas. Hey, it's okay that you live with this woman, you know, that you're not married to. Somebody was finally confronted him with his sin and he saw it for what it was, and the pain of that finally turned him towards Christ. Wow. But it was like the risk between the relationship was like, if he doesn't come to Christ, you and he are no longer friends. You know, like that was what was at stake.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03I wanted to ask you guys in your ministry, long-term ministry, have you seen this enacted?
Why Discipline Feels Impossible Today
SPEAKER_03Like I I know of a church, you know, that does expulsions when they have people who are in their community who are willingly sinning. And I think somebody here told about a story, but have you had to deal with that as a pastor where you've had to say, we know that you're doing this and you gotta stop or you gotta go?
SPEAKER_01Like, is that what he's saying? This is what happened. This is what happened, yep.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I've had to deal with a number of different things, but fortunately it never came to the to where I had to say you're out of here. I've had To remove people, ask people to leave the church for other things, not necessarily sin things. More rebellion than I guess rebellion.
SPEAKER_02That is sin.
SPEAKER_05But I mean not as I mean not as far as like sexual issues to where they didn't want to it was more of they were causing problems. Yeah. So I I have had to do that, but not something in this category to where they keep kept wanting to Did they come back?
SPEAKER_03Did they return? Did they repent?
SPEAKER_05I think I've had maybe one person come back. Well the problem the problem would be is that and repent and restored restored.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus You can just go to a different church that'll accept your save.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_03Totally. Yes. I'll find someone who likes that.
SPEAKER_05Our consumer culture today. It's just I'll just go to the church.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's what I mean. We're in such a different culture.
SPEAKER_00I mean we've had people ask, you know, hey, will you dedicate our kids and we don't believe in marriage and um we live together? And I was like, I will not do that. That's an important step for me. And um have have not stayed. That's recent. I mean, I I think for us as a church, I think we've I I wouldn't say we've asked people to leave, we've asked people to not serve. I think would be more of the I hate to say it this way, more modern day. What I mean, I'm not telling you can't be here, but I am telling you like if you are gonna be here, you're gonna you're not gonna serve. You're gonna until this happens. Um but I I do think they're you know, going back to what Mike was just saying, I think there are some things that we tolerate as bigger than. So like, well, it's not as bad of a sin. You know what I mean? So um so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna call them out on that one. Uh I think the difference in what is happening here is it's so public. Everybody knows about this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And everyone's probably talking about it. And so it's known.
SPEAKER_03And it sounds like they're celebrating it.
SPEAKER_00And that's it. Now now we're not the whole love wins. Yeah. Love wins, love wins, love wins, love wins. Well, and we even talked about this. Obviously, being in California, we saw a lot of things, and uh, you know, um that sentiment is true, right? Love does win. Yeah, right? But but it's like, you know, you you're or you're hearing about the major league baseball players who are like, yeah, I'll wear the rainbow hat, but I'm putting Genesis on it. And and then when people ask me afterwards, you know, I'm sharing, and so now Major League Baseball's finding those guys. And it's like, you know, we we're gonna say those things to where so you don't think love does win? It's like, well, you you don't think, you know, certain lives matter? Like, oh, of course I do. But let's let's look deeper into some of these things, right? And the and the role behind them. What is happening here is it is celebrated amongst everyone. No one's saying publicly, this shouldn't be happening. In fact, they're throwing showers for them, or they're they're, you know, hey, come come to dinner with us. Like, and even, you know, and we don't get the end result, right? Like, like most of Jesus' stories. We don't happen with the prodigal son and all those kind of things. Like, so you're you're getting an example of this is what happens if you tolerate something. It's not popular. You might have people who go, hey, behind the scenes at dinner with my family, we're we're talking about how I don't know if that's right. Um, but I'm not gonna say anything publicly against it's not my who am I to judge? Like we kind of take this approach and and what Paul is addressing is and he even says it like, yeah, outside the church, sin or sin. That that's what you're exactly right. Inside the church, we judge. Inside the church, we talk about this. Um and and ultimately he says, Hey, you need to you need to release him and you need to let him go.
SPEAKER_03And
Lead With Scripture Not Personal Opinion
SPEAKER_03that's uh I'm thinking of some of the instances in our community where you know, I think I've I've seen you um and Pastor Sean, you know, engage with people who are living together. And so then you ask the question, and then instead of like expulsion, it invites them into conversation into marriage. And I think even more, like more and more people who are coming into the church, they actually don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree with you.
SPEAKER_03They really don't know what it means to be a Christ follower.
SPEAKER_01My experience is that like most of the time people are like, What? Whoa, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Like, I I don't feel like Or it just like with Dream Big giving money. You're like, wait, we're supposed to try? I've never heard.
SPEAKER_01Most people are like, you know, I think it's more so on us, like with this internal battle, like that we don't want to have the conversation. But it's like, wait a second, if you care, if you genuinely care for someone, you're gonna have the hard conversation. You're gonna sit down with them and say, Hey, can we just read through this? I remember the first time as a youth pastor, I had to deal with the issue of uh a young man, you know, with the same sex attraction, you know, and he came to me and he was like loud about it, gay lifestyle, all that kind of stuff. And so he wanted to have a conversation with me. And so I remember like being so nervous doing that the first time. And I just said, hey man, we're gonna, I'm not the authority on this. The Bible is the authority. We're just gonna read through the Bible together and and and learn something together. He was like, This is awesome. Like I've never been explained, you know what I mean? Like, and in that moment I thought, wait a second, like it's not on, again, it's not on my I'm not setting the authority. I'm not changing people's minds and hearts. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. That's great. And if someone's bringing something to me, or if I am noticing something, there's a good chance the Holy Spirit's already at work. It's just whether or not I'm gonna obey God and work with him uh to see something great accomplished. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00And so I mean, my first question when I'm talking with someone is always, who am I talking to?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Am I talking to someone who's following Jesus, desires to follow Jesus, or am I talking to someone who's not? So my first interaction with that was was that same scenario. Hey, I'm struggling with this. What do I do with it? Who am I talking to? I want to follow Jesus. Okay, here's where we need to go. That's a great question. It's a totally different, like even when a couple comes in, hey guys, where are you at? Which why do you want to do a religious wedding ceremony? Yeah. Like all of those kind of questions gets to the heart of, oh, you're living together. Okay, well, you know, from this standpoint, this is what we believe, this is what the Bible says, all those kinds. It's unknowing. You know, I I had no clue. Okay, you know, and so it's like I'm moving them towards something, that's the goal. Um, and I think so many people don't even get to that point. I mean, I've had people say, Hey, um, you know, because we're living together, so and so won't do my wedding. Would you do it? I'm like, I want that conversation. So hold on, help me understand. You're living together, but you want to get married? Yes. Okay, so you want to make it right, and I get the opportunity to talk to you in the meantime? Yes, absolutely. I'm I'm not gonna push that conversation away because up to this point. We're trying to move towards up to this point that they're not following Jesus. So they're doing what Paul is saying. They're sinners, sinning. Oh, are we surprised by this?
SPEAKER_01Like Yeah, we're not pushing people out that want to correct. Right.
SPEAKER_00But that's not the issue. I want to change this. Yeah. Okay. Well, I I want to help you in that. So, like, I mean, I just I don't that's not what we're talking about here, though. This is right. I mean, take someone in the church that's in leadership, that's well known. I mean, that's how I'm picturing it. And then you find out this is happening. They're coming into the office. Right. They're coming into the office and they're saying, Sean, Jamie, Mike, hey, this is happening. Um, I'm sleeping with her. And uh it just happened. I mean, think of whatever scenario scenario you want. Say his dad did die. Let's say he did. Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm doing it, and man, I I don't think it's wrong, and I and I want to do it. Yeah and it's like, whoa, dude, this isn't this isn't right. Instead, the leadership said, Well, man, if you if you feel that way, I could kind of see you guys together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And Paul's like, wait a second here.
SPEAKER_03Paul
What “Do Not Eat With” Means
SPEAKER_03says, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all, meaning the people of the world or the swindlers or idolaters. I'm writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister, but is sexually immoral or greeter, or greedy, or an idolater, or a slanderer.
SPEAKER_01Don't even have lunch with them.
SPEAKER_03Don't even eat with them.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, this is the thing though, like this individual, this is not a one-night stand.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This is a lifestyle. This is not a son that had sex with his mom one night, was like, I was drunk and I didn't know what I was doing.
SPEAKER_03Live in the same household.
SPEAKER_01And have been for a season. You know what I mean? Like, and so it's like if I if Jamie came to me and said, Hey Sean, like you've been living in this sin. Uh, we need to talk about it. And I said, Pastor, I know I'm living in this sin and I'm gonna continue to live in this sin. I don't want to get out of this sin. He's gonna look at me and say, You just lost your job. You know what I mean? Like, and so like But you guys aren't having lunch either. We're not, you know what I mean? No more coffee dates with you, no more coffee dates with you, right?
SPEAKER_05Like, which that was a bigger thing than what we realized, because to eat with someone in that culture meant that you were into you were had intimate friendship, that you were very close with them, that you trusted with them, and all of those things. So when he said don't eat with them, that was a big thing.
SPEAKER_00Well, and Paul's writing the whole church. Yeah. So again, he's not here an individual. Yeah. He's writing everybody, hey, read this church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I've never, I don't think I've ever, not that I would not be, I I don't mind, you know, I'm not I don't love conflict, but I don't mind conflict. Uh but I've never seen this actually play it out in regards to like I mean, most of the time my experience is when you go to someone and talk about their sin that are in the body of Christ, they're actually like open, you know. Now it's not cool like when it's like Jody or Jamie Sean and Jody over there, like, hey, you know, did you guys hear about this person? Like, did you guys did it? And there's all this the church is over here doing their thing, whispering about someone that's in the church that's living in sin. No one's confronting that sin. Now that person feels judged and walks away. You know what I mean? We see that happen all the time in the church. That's what we don't want. You know, we want to be able to confront a person, love them, have an honest conversation with them, not judge them that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's what you said. I assume the assumption is that that he's been talked to. Yes. And says, I'm gonna do this anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yes, one hundred percent.
SPEAKER_00Okay, if you're gonna do that. We love you so much. Like you can't say, oh, all right, well, thank thank you. You do a lot for us, so I'm not gonna say anything.
SPEAKER_03Like we don't want to lose your checks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, he's going to your influence. Yes. No, you need to tell him if you don't stop this, he's out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you're now if you don't do it, you're bringing that yeast into your house. Yes. And now it's gonna live in the house.
SPEAKER_03And now it's like, oh, well, if that's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You're removing the blessing, the covering of God over your own head.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And so Yeah. Yeah, it's but it's just like what here's a devices advocate question. Like,
All Sinners Welcome Not Sin Affirmed
SPEAKER_01we have a sign on our building, right? And I I could answer this, so I I feel like I have a good answer for this, but sign on our building says, well, not right now, we used to. All sinners welcome. What does that mean in context to this text? It does a place for sinners. A place for sinners, right?
SPEAKER_03Which I I mean like a starting point. You are, but he doesn't want you to stay that way.
SPEAKER_01When I was a church planner in St. Louis, there was a petition going around to all preachers, which I'm sure you've both of you have seen something like this, and it said, Will you be an open, and we've talked about this terminology, open and affirming church. I will be an open church as in all sinners are welcome. We will not affirm anyone's sin, no matter what the sin is. We're not gonna. If you're a liar, we're gonna talk about it. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? Like we're not affirming anything. We're gonna affirm that you're doing it and you need to get out of it. You know what I mean? But we're open to every everybody's a sinner, but we're not affirming your sin. That's what we're doing. Ground zero. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03At camp last week, the um children's pastor sh one of the nights was it's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay that way. Perfect. And so I feel like this it's okay to be sinner. We actually all are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But we're gonna move from that point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think as Christians, one of the things we have to be careful of doing in the body is not like we have this small group, and then all of a sudden we hear of one individual in the small group that's living in a sin, and we start creating different nights of You know what I mean? Like I feel like there's a tendency for the church sometimes to do that where we because we're so nervous about the confronting a a sister or brother sin. Like, no, we need to confront them. We love them, we care about them, we need to. And then the conversation starts, you know. Yeah. Kind of thing.
SPEAKER_05But go ahead. No, but I I was you know, when you said that as a okay, we're talking about sexual immorality here, but he goes on to talk about deal with them like you know in the same way with somebody that's greedy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Somebody that's an idolater, a reviler, a drunkard, a swindler. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's the only time I ever saw it. I saw it uh of a couple that was gossiping. I don't know if you're that's the story you're referring to, Joe, where like literally the pastor had a family stand-up. Yes. And he was told to hey, they're gossiping. They've been they've been confronted. Um, they refused to stop gossiping, and I'm asking you as a church to not associate with them anymore. I was like, that is uh ballsy for sure. Did you see the ending to that story though? That they were I did not because I was a visitor in the house. So I I I don't know the end. Um I'm telling you a story I don't know the ending of. But I I was like, I as a as a young leader at that time was so impressed with the um you could tell, and here's what I could read from the pastor that day, is he was so beside himself, like he didn't know what else to do. Um and it had it like it had to get to that point. But you could tell it's not what he wanted to do, right? But like Paul, what I saw from him that day is restoration is the goal. That's awesome. And so when when Paul is saying put him out, and it's hard to hear it this way, restoration is still the goal. Yeah. We're we're hoping he goes that that was not worth losing.
SPEAKER_01Isn't it similar to the prodigal son story? I
Tough Love And The Prodigal Pattern
SPEAKER_01think so. Like where he's like, he's this is the life he's living, he's consistently living, he's not gonna live in my house. He wants this, let him go. He'll end up in the pig's eye. That's the hope, then he'll return.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And obviously that's what happens, but that's what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00I think I get heartbroken with parents who who do it, and you know, that's in the right.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what do you mean? Well, when parents do yeah, let them go and then something tragic happens. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I hope I never have to be in a situation.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? Where it's like I let them go and and and I I'm not saying you do something different, but like they don't end up in a big style, they end up in a morgue, or you know, or something tragic happens. And it's like that's but ultimately we understand that's the cost of sin, right? That's the that's the consequence of sin. But uh that's that's why I think Luke 15 is so powerful because you you have so many parents who are like, I would never allow that to happen. I wouldn't, you know, you say all those things, but it's like, but he that was him displaying, hey, you you have a choice in this. I love you. Um obviously we see the big picture. Right. The big picture is like as long as you come back, you're always welcome here. You know? Um, but and you saw how he responded, yeah. You know, in in the ring and not a servant, you're my son, you're you're not that. So you see that, but then you're like, man, it's uh so I mean again, Paul doesn't also know by putting him out.
SPEAKER_03It may not, and yeah, it may not in it. He could go to a policy's camp and be like, you know those dirty rotten Paul followers.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we have some move. She said to me, I'm going to a church that uh is okay with this. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, okay. Well, I mean, I don't Yeah. It's your choice. It's your choice.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say, um, I made me think of a friend, a coworker that I work with, um, not a follower, but she has a grown son who is um addicted to I forget the heroin. And so he's in his 40s now and lives in their basement. And she was like, you know, I want him to have a different life, to have a better life. And so she did the tough love and kicked him out. And then he ended up homeless, and she was like, I couldn't do it. And so she let him come back in, back into the fold, or he's protected, but he's also not changing, you know.
SPEAKER_05So that's tough.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it is like it's either gonna see your kid, like you said, fail or he's gonna stay alive, but he's still addicted. Don't even know how to the other thing I was gonna say, Pastor Jamie, when you were talking about um the man who had to do the confrontation with the uh family. What I love about you, that you guys have that pastor's group in this area. So that if there are people who are church hopping, I mean, I think you even kiddingly said it, you're new to here. Well, I've already heard about you from the last pastor. You know, like we're into playing that here. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I I love when someone says, I came from so-and-so, and I can go, oh, I love Pastor.
SPEAKER_04I love that. So true.
SPEAKER_05Here's the lesson that I
Protecting The Flock Matthew 18 Style
SPEAKER_05learned. I'll go back to having to ask someone to leave. Um the lesson that I learned is it's better to offend one than many. To offend that one person that you're asking to leave, because if you let them stay, they end up causing a lot of other people to become offended.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So it's better to offend one than end up with many offended.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think the the lie that I think we can sometimes believe is that if I do this with the one, they're gonna tell others. You know what I mean? Like that others, others are gonna know because if they're gonna consider doing this, then surely they're gonna continue to gossip or slander or say you know, rarely are they gonna leave under those conditions and have something good to say about leadership. So the assumption is I'm not gonna do that so that you at least like me. Right? And so it's like uh that's why again, like the big picture for me as a leader, Paul is thinking about eternity, not about not about how you feel about me in 2026.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think as a pastor, as a shepherd, as a protector, like I expect you guys to protect us in that way. But Paul is writing to the church. So like it's not only your job, it's also mine if I see it, you know, my every person who's there. Like we're all supposed to be holding this accountable person.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I had I had a this was I was in South Dakota. I just thought about this. I had a guy who's starting to you know usurp authority and going around and trying to be, you know, uh a leader, and he wasn't, you know, put in any kind of debt leadership position. He was just being real manipulative and everything. So I I called him in and I said, Look, here's the deal. If you want to stay in this church, you're a sheep. Okay. If you're not a sheep, you're a wolf. Oh and I said, You know that shepherd staff that hangs up on the platform? I said, I take that very serious because I'm very protective of the people in this church. So I said, What are you gonna be? You're gonna be a sheep or are you gonna be a wolf? It's your choice.
SPEAKER_04He looked at me and he went, He did. He actually did.
SPEAKER_03He actually did. I was gonna go, oh, and that is.
SPEAKER_05I told him I said that's the answer that I wanted.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_05Those are in yeah, those are in my room.
SPEAKER_01Conversation needed to happen.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, sure. That's incredible. But in in these other scenarios, I can remember one vividly when I had to remove this one individual and that was cut. I had people come to me and they said, so-and-so said you asked them to leave. I said, that's correct, I did. And they said, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's what I was gonna say. When you say the many, like you're also offending. I mean, again, we're saying it's also our job as the body of Christ when we see it to be a part of that restoration as part of the eviction. But then you're also having all those people who also see like, oh my gosh, no one is speaking out about this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, I am supposed to as well.
SPEAKER_00But if you're gonna if you're gonna have that conversation, you would have gone to, you know, like if you're if he's in your small group, my first thing is, Mike, so why are you guys not having this conversation? Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Why are you why am I having to have the conversation?
SPEAKER_03Pass the butt.
SPEAKER_00Because you're not willing to have the conversation. Yep. You know.
SPEAKER_03It's like, well, that's a learning opportunity.
SPEAKER_00For sure.
SPEAKER_05And l let me throw this caveat to this. I I didn't cherish the idea of having to do any of this. It it was the last it was like, I don't want to do this. So it wasn't like, oh man, I can't wait.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, this is Matthew 18, right? Yeah. Go to your brother. Go to your brother. If he doesn't listen, take someone with you. If he doesn't listen that time, bring it before the people. Yeah. Like those are I mean, these are the process. Yes. To to do these things. I mean, that's Yeah, you shouldn't.
SPEAKER_01We're not saying, hey, go to your small group and talk to that person. I mean, talk to them once, bring the couple, like it should be a process, not one and done.
SPEAKER_00And again, don't forget, like, unrepentant. This is who we're talking about. These are people who are like, I know it's wrong, or I don't know what's wrong. I'm just, here's what you know. I'm not stopping. Yeah. I'm gonna keep doing this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they are visibly of involved with the church and they're unrepentant. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Great conversation, guys. Chapter five. Check it off. And so flip a quarter.
SPEAKER_03What's that mean?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it looks like it landed on Jody.
SPEAKER_03I see.
A Closing Prayer For Courage
SPEAKER_03Heavenly Father, we thank you for your word. And I'm so thankful to be in Corinthians where we're not just picking and choosing what we want to read, but we're just going chapter by chapter. And so the chapters are reading us, whether we want these words or not. So I pray that your words would shape us, that we would be people. He says later, Paul, that um we are just a noisy gong if we do anything without love. So I pray that we would love our neighbor. We would love the people in our church enough to confront them so that there can be healing and wholeness in our community. Would you help us to do it, Holy Spirit, in Jesus' name? Amen.